Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia

Recovery Soon · Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Few Full Recoveries

Dear Ashok,

I have read many of the testimonials on your site and others. They are truly impressive. It seems the overwhelming majority of them are from people who have made great strides and enthusiastically believe they will recover at some point in the future, but haven't fully gotten there yet.

Based on the very high number of full recoveries from your study, how come there are not just as many testimonials from people who have actually recovered 100%?

This is where I get a little skeptical. I just don't see enough testimonials on your site or others to support the belief that people are fully recovering in numbers that you suggest.

Even the video testimonials on your site are in large part from people who have not yet fully recovered.

Not to be insulting, or disrespectful at all. But seeing more of these testimonials would make the case a little better.

Thanks.
Recovery Soon.

Ashok Gupta · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:46 am Post subject:

Dear "Recovery Soon",

Thanks for your email. Let me clear up the situation:

- the video testimonials were filmed after approximately only 6 months of initial treatment. For a full 100% recovery, it does take around a year for most people.
- what is a 100% full recovery? This is an important question. I believe people are fully 100% recovered from ME/CFS and Fibromyalgia when they have reached 80-90% of their pre-illness levels. This is because there is inevitably deconditioning, and it can take some time for the body to be back to full health and used to higher levels of activity. Many patients underestimate their recoveries because they want to feel fit and healthy like an athlete before they will say they have fully 100% recovered, but they have to be realistic. An athlete who has not trained in years will have to start off slowly. If you ask most normal people in an average population, they will not necessarily have really high levels of energy, etc, and would probably assess themselves at 90-95% compared to when they have been at their most energetic. Once people have got to around 85-90% of pre-illness levels, I don't think they have ME/CFS anymore, rather it is getting the body used to new activities which have become de-conditioned, and this has to be done patiently and without rushing.
- I deliberately ask people to be cautious in the programme about assessing their levels of fitness and to not be complacent. Once someone has retrained the amygdala, the amygdala can still be a bit sensitive, so it is sensible to introduce activities gradually rather than thinking you are 100% and just going for it. Having said that, there are many recovery stories of people being able to go back to the gym etc quite quickly
- The DVD programme has only been running for a year, so I am sure more of the full recovery stories will slowly begin to trickle in now. I have many patients from before the DVD programme who are 100% better who I saw personally one on one, I can ask them to send me testimonials if that would help you
- A lot of people who do get better, are so relieved that they leave the whole community and don't want to be reminded about it anymore

Anyway, hope that helps answer your question

Kind regards
Ashok

Recovery Soon · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject:

Thanks Ashok.

Yes that does answer my question, and Yes, I would like to see those testimonials!

Best,
RS

llelnino · Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Ashok "Still Waiting"

Still waiting on those testimonials Ashok. I really would think if you really were having the success that you say you are having that you would update it on your website.

Recovery Soon · Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately, to date there's a lot of encouraged "much better than I used to be!" testimonials, but very few from the 100% recovered crowd.

Even the most ardent supporters are mostly saying things like "Even if I don't get fully better I'll be happy with how much I progressed."

Seem to be acknowledging the limitations.

I really would like the real deal.

damask-rose · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:57 am Post subject:

That was helpful advice for me from Ashok. I seem to have reached the 85% mark (from about 45% at the start) and notice that I'm beginning to get a bit casual about it all, thinking I'm completely better, when I still have a little way to go. Think I'll have to slow down a bit. Thought it's so good to be leading an almost normal life again!

Recovery Soon · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:32 am Post subject:

Please let us know when you hit 100. You could be our first!

kenvj · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject:

Recovery Soon - I'm left wondering if you are doing the Gupta Program or if you are waiting until someone believes they have reached 100%.
I don't understand you - is it not worth it to get some degree of improvement where other "fixes" don't work?
I don't ever expect to reach 100% but I'm very grateful to have something that really helps me and doesn't cost me a fortune.

Recovery Soon · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject:

Kenv,

I am doing, have done the program for 13 months. At first I was gung-ho, and really though like many people I would get rid of this condition. Yes, I believe there is merit to what Ashok says, and the money back guarantee is credible. But, what has not proven to be credible is whether people are fully recovering in numbers he suggests. I have been willing to take him at his word for a looooong time, but I'm not seeing the testimonials, only numbers provided by Ashok.

Now I understand your point, and yes, any recoverym especially with a money back guarantee is probably better than any other program out there. I don't disagree. If it helps, it's wonderful. But there it is a valid question to ask a man to back up his claims.
I struggle to see if my ebb and flow sick/healthy cycle puts me in the Gupta minority...because that is what I thought for a long while. But th more I hear other people speak about their experiences, it appears I'm not.

I haven't heard of ONE SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS RETURNED TO A FULL, 100% PRE-ILLNESS RECOVERY. You are fine with that, but I am taking Ashok at his word, and want to hear from these folks to get a sense of what capabilities the program really has, and what validity his theories hold.

The truth is I grapple with whether or not he has come up with a cure for CFS...or a just a great stress reduction program that work with ANY ILLNESS.

Yes...it's all positive. He deserves much credit hat we are even having this discussion.

But for all those people on the sidelines they need the real story.

And so far, I have not been convinced people are being cured, especially in numbers that he suggest.

It is fair AND NOT NEGATIVE TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS.

It is sensible, and not an attack on anyone.

And to answer your question about my motivation, I hope to God to hear from people who have fully recovered to get more confidence it can happen for me...but the truth is I'm losing the faith I had, but the lack of these people coming forth, coupled with the exuberance of those who BELIEVE they will be cured but are not there. Because I was one of those people.

The truth is, as ASHOK points out in the program, that CFS ebbs and flows...and I'm not sure that the times I thought the program.technique was working did not just happen to fall in a flow period. In other words I can't honestly attribute great improvement to this program. Only temporary highs and lows, which was the norm prior to ever hearing about Ashok.

Otherwise, I don't care anything about his outside business interests. But I want the raw data on people getting better. And saying "I got a little bit better is good enough for me" unfortunately is not good enough for me.

I want to live again. And exercise. And not live in a box anymore, with limitations. And most of all I want to see proof that it's possible.

But no one's shown any yet.

kenvj · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject:

Recovery Soon - thanks for your frank and full response - I do see your point. I have been doing the program for almost 7 months and I think I'm experiencing something similar to you. I've gone backwards just lately due at least in part to experiencing intense stress from an unrelated health issue. I have also begun to think that I'm one of those people who will never get fully well but I think that some people can and will get fully well with this program. I think Ashok says that he considers a person fully recovered when they are 85% or more recovered and I suppose thats not strictly a full recovery but it would do for me. I think it is an excellent stress reduction program even if it is not a cure and it has helped me more than anything else I've tried.
Thanks for this exchange of views, I appreciate now where you're coming from.

cfs_since_1998 · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject:

[quote="kenvj"]I think Ashok says that he considers a person fully recovered when they are 85% or more recovered[/quote]

You are fully recovered when you are 85% recovered? I can't think of a better example of doubletalk.

Recovery Soon · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject:

I think his rationale is that a person with CFS has a de-conditioned body from lack of activity, and the 15% represents this deconditioned state.

But yes, it doesn't quite make sense, because a person like myself for example, who was is great physical shape prior to getting CFS 2.5 years ago is now in similar physical shape to anyone else who hasn't worked out in 2.5 years, except that I have CFS. When all the symptoms pass for good, and don't return, THAT will be 100% recovered, regardless of whether I am actively exercising or not....or have a body that is toned or not.

It's all pretty confusing. And can be cleared up easily with testimonials from people who are fully cured. The longer it takes to hear from them, the more skeptical people will become, I suspect.

cfs_since_1998 · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:23 am Post subject:

While I know Mr. Gupta didn't invent the idea of CFS patients being deconditioned, I don't agree with the deconditioning argument at all. If a person is recovered from CFS but deconditioned, then it should only take a couple of weeks to fix that. I think he is using this deconditioning hypothesis as a scapegoat, and also as a psychological trick to convince patients that they are cured when they really aren't.

I know there's lots of stories of people being bed bound by CFS, but that is not the typical case. For example, despite my having CFS, my level of activity throughout the day is relatively average compared to healthy people; I am just miserable while doing it because of my CFS symptoms. People with a cold or flu get muscle aches, but are they deconditioned? I certainly don't think so.

The programme may still be beneficial to many patients. It's just that the creator seems disingenuous, and as you said, there is no real evidence of full recoveries.

Recovery Soon · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject:

I agree with many of your points, especially about the deconditioning definitions. And I identify with your condition, which sounds very close to my own.

I wouldn't characterize Gupta as disingenuous though. He personally gave me 2 different phone sessions, each lasting over an hour, for free. And he called me from overseas both times. He also offered to refund my money for the program when I didn't fully recover after 6 months, and let me keep the program. I refused because of the generous time and counsel he had had given me. I have also met him in person and am confident he believes 100% in this theory. I believe in much it too...but I'm not convinced his techniques are curing people in numbers that he states.

But I do not think he is a charlatan.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia

Few Full Recoveries