Some supporting evidence, for what it's worth

[Jj85]

Hi guys,

I decided that it might be good for me to avoid these boards for awhile, to see if that helps me relax. Before I check out, I did want to say that I seem to have developed my very own Gupta-like stress response.

Right now I'm at school. I'm able to handle it because I consider myself about 85% healthy. I can go for walks, I sleep pretty well, I can think pretty clearly. I just can't drink heavily or exercise yet.

What's weird is that I've noticed in the last month or two that I might be feeling very healthy-- fresh, awake, low headache levels-- and literally, within 5 minutes of beginning to read a textbook for class, my forehead starts to throb and my eyes get this dull pain. And I don't even feel stressed! I think what happened is that I had a relapse awhile ago, and while in the midst of it, I had a lot of work to do, which stressed me further... and now it's like my brain just associates reading for school with symptoms. As if, because I'm reading, I must be stressed, and therefore, my heart has to start pumping harder, and all this adrenaline gets released... I don't know. It's weird. If I told anyone in the non-CFS community, they'd think I was crazy.

Anyway, I'm trying to see if I can break the cycle. Now when I read, every few minutes, I close my eyes, do some S&F, tell myself every few minutes how much fun I'm having, how much I enjoy it, how well I'll do on exams. I'm going to see if I can reverse this response. I'll let you all know how it turns out. Until then, everyone have a good Thanksgiving. For those not in America... well, have a good week.

[Emergo]

JJ85,

Best of luck to you. Thanks for your contribution to this board!

E

[billoddie]

your mind jumped in and judged it as boring...ie stress. Mine does it all the time! A conversation or situation that i am not particulary intterested in will see an "attack" from behind my eyes and in my head...starting the chain of events to you know where.

[damask-rose]

That's interesting Bill. I'd never thought of perceived boredom as causing stress. Is this something you've just worked out for yourself, or is it a well-known thing? Do people with CFS tend to have low boredom threshholds? I know that I do.

[kenvj]

I think boredom causes stress to anyone.Thing is normal people will handle that stress in a normal way, CFS people will handle it poorly because CFS people handle stress poorly. There is no doubt that boredom brings about a strong stress response in me.

[billoddie]

yes i did work it out myself. But i think its appropriate for others too. If my mind assesses that "I" need to do something that i don't like, then the attack will come. I have been able to ratchet down this response through Gupta and bringing awareness to it. I think it gets down to the fact that the mind (and interpreted by the amygdala) just perceives stress in ANYTHING i don't absolutely want to do. (and when your tired, thats virtually everything...hence its regarded as another stessor) In regards to whether people with cfs have low boredom thresholds, I don't know of any studies, but it is well known that the TYPE of person who GENERALLY gets cfs have usually been highly driven, intense, often over the top in terms of doing things in their lives and demanding a lot from themselves...so yes, these types of people, (us), I would say are easily bored. The cfs type has similar parallels to ADD types. Thats why Ritalin and Dex-amphetamine is sometimes successful in MODERATING our symptoms. These stimulants don't work the way in which things like coffee do. They work mainly on the brain neurotransmitters. Most notably dopamine. Dopamine is connected to our reward response. People with low dopamine generally seek thrilling and exciting events to raise dopamine and so get the internal feeling of reward satisfaction. I know for me, I was always chasing "something else". I do take dexamphetamine (low dose), and whilst it is mildly energizing, its main effect is that it helps to shut down the negative crap in my head, calms me, and gives me a feeling of general satisfaction. My head feels better because it is clearer...all that noise and static quietens down markedly. Hasn't been the full answer, but has been a big, big help.

[Jj85]

Just checked everything here for the first time in awhile. I will say that since Thanksgiving, which is when I was prescribed adderall, I've been doing A LOT better. I used it during finals for two weeks, and am so thankful that I didn't have to take tests or study without it.

What you say about adderall makes sense. When I drink coffee, I do often get jittery. But I still remember the first time I had adderall. I felt calm and confident for the first time in months. It was pretty crazy. Generally, adderall has been amazing. For me, it works on two levels.

Not only has it drastically reduced my symptoms, but, even more important, the peace of mind that has come with knowing that I have this sort of magic bullet has made me more calm in general. It's like it reverses the flow of Gupta's vicious circle. The better I feel, the more calm I get, and so on. In fact, I've felt so good the past couple weeks that I've stopped meditating altogether (I know this is probably a really bad idea, so I'm going to try to start up again soon).

As of now, it's too early to tell if this will all work long term. I'm still home from school on break, so that's one big stressor that's absent from my life. But, I'm going to work on slowly increasing my exercise tolerance while I have the free time.

Does anyone else have any ideas or techniques that help re-condition your mind to react less to certain activities?

[billoddie]

EXACTLY!! Adderal is long acting dexamphetamine. I take the straight dex, two doses a day. It works on the brain and calms it because it helps increase the effectiveness of dopamine. Let me explain a little more. I used to take amino acid precursors such as tyrosine, in the hope of boosting my dopamine. I also took l-dopa , again hoping for the same effect. Didn't do anything. Probably felt a bit worse. After more research, I realized that the problem wasn't necessarily lack of dopamine. The problem was that it was not being used. Dexamphetamine works on the intracell (in the cell) level. It goes in an "kicks out" the "just lazing around" dopamine; out into the cell walls and into the brain where it is used. If cfs, this leads to a greater sense of well being...calmness...and a chance to break the vicious stress cycle. I use it in conjunction with Gupta, and have made awesome progress. This week i have done 2 yoga classes, 1 gym session, and boxed 4 hrs. I still feel fine. Yes there have been some dips. But i simply view them as an invitation to peel of another layer of the stress response. I can feel my body releasing the fear...and starting to believe in itself. Have you asked yourself the question, "what is at the core of my fatigue?'" I bet for most (if not all) of us, the answer is...FEAR! This IS the essence, the crystallized potency of what stress actually IS. Thats why gupta works. Because it is a way of resetting "that master switch" that I always felt had been flicked somewhere in my brain. I just didnt know how to reset it. I must make an important point though...if you are in full blown crisis mode, the adderal/dex/ritalin etc will only work very short term. The master program will soon write over the top of them. It is after all, what the body and mind/brain will ultimately obey. To get the most out of stimulants, you gotta do gupta...to some degree. Most don't REALLY understand what gupta is on about. When the little lightbulb goes off in your head and you do understand...then your ready for gupta. But you know...even if you don't understand, there is still value in starting. I didn't really understand when i started. I just (reluctantly) did it. And my, wasn't there some fear there, just DOING it! This fact is confirmation of what Gupta says...that our stress response is in hyperdrive, so much so, that we don't even recognize it because it just so normal. We are UNABLE to relax. A friend of mine (with cfs) said to me once..."you know, we dont need more energy; we need more relaxation". Why cant we sleep despite being so INCREDIBLY tired? Because there is not a single millimetre of space within us to rest. Nowhere internally can we find a place to relax. It is FULL of tension and stress. And pain and that cruelling tiredness...is inevitable!

[Chronicfatiguetreatments]

i tried that along time ago and i was so jittery and had crazy insomnia. The only thing that i can tolerate for energy is adrenal extract, b12, and choline.
But ive tried ritalin and dex and i didnt feel right.

[billoddie]

Yes you wont whilst in crisis mode...ie amygdala. Like i say...if i dont do gupta for a few days, forget it. Dex/ritalin does nothing. There has to be a degree of stability. The signals generated in the brain will walk all over the stimulants otherwise. And (my theory only), when in this state, the stimulant will be interpreted as another stressor . When I used to take illegal drug substances back in my youth, L.S.D was a favorite. But we all knew that you had to take acid in a good frame of mind because the drug would magnify what was happening in your internal space. Likewise, if you got a little rattled throughout your trip, you had to make sure you kept your head and remain light and positive, otherwise you could freak. In CFS, I suspect the stimulants could sometimes be interpreted the same way by the amygdala. This maybe an explanation of why they work for some and not others. One thing we know with this cfs is our bodies can and do react very strangely to things, when all the science suggests that it shouldn't happen. I started on stimulants after doing gupta for a while. maybe they wouldn't have had the same positive response if i hadn't prefaced them with gupta. I have been really consistent with gupta (and my food) this last week, and i am having times when I actually feel Great! Dont wanna say too much yet, but time will tell. In terms of your experience, dose is also very critical, and insomnia is definitely an initial side effect. I am starting to sleep quite well now simply due to the gupta effect of feeling so much more internally relaxed. When I close my eyes now, I can sink down and drift into rest. My girlfriend even said i snored briefly the other night. Are you still against giving gupta a go for yourself? Or have you tried it yet and didnt get much of a result?

[damask-rose]

This is fascinating stuff! I've longed for some kind of pill which would let me relax enough to make real progress with the Gupta programme - it's so hard dealing with the fear when you're in such a high state of overdrive. But it seems it might be difficult to tell if you're in the right state to be able to take this dex.

I competely agree with your friend, Bill, about the need for relaxation rather than energy. One of my problems with the Lightning Process was they emphasised visualising energetic states, and doing energetic things, but for me that was counterproductive, what I really needed was tranquillity.

Fortunately I can find that calm place inside me now, more or less on demand - but it has taken two years on the Gupta programme to achieve that!

[annie]

Bill, you mention really understanding Gupta. would you mind enlarging on that a bit. Perhaps I am not getting it, even after using the programme for a long time, i am not having the results that some people are.

[Jj85]

Bill, I'm with you man. Of course, I don't know anything about the chemical interactions involved with adderall, but I will say that it feels like a switch really has been flipped.

On one hand, I've (so far, fingers crossed) been a CFS-sufferer that doesn't have it as bad as most other people. The post-exertional malaise element has only been present for about a year now, and physical and mental exertion have, since then, always been an apparent cause of my symptoms. I've been lucky enough to know that whenever I can rest (like if I go on a very relaxing vacation), I always eventually get back to 100%. What made this all difficult, before adderall, is that, obviously, real life doesn't let you always relax.

But maybe the point is, like you say, that we and some others are close enough to health that adderall works? I know that for three or so weeks prior to taking my first dose, I was trying to do as little as possible, and while I was getting better, I was sort of hitting a worrisome plateau: I still always had at least slight migraines and felt jittery, no matter how little I did. But my first pill completely brought me back to 100, and even after the adderall had run out of my system, I still felt great. It's like I was pushing this big rock up a hill, and the adderall made the final push-- now the rock is just rolling by itself, and I don't have to push it.

As for exercise, I played my first game of basketball in a long, long time a few days ago. I've started doing push-ups again, and going for long walks. And here's the weird part. I know I'm not "cured," because I still do get slight dips when I'm done. But they don't last. I always feel 100 again by the next morning. It used to be that the worst part of my particular condition was that I'd feel 100, go for a run, and then a few hours later, I'd feel this terrible, impending sense of doom as I felt the adrenaline seep into my muscles, blood rush to my head, etc etc. Then I'd know I was really in for it for at least a couple weeks.

But I have some questions. Do you always need to be taking adderall to feel good? Are you worried about developing a resistance/tolerance?

[billoddie]

Hi Annie. maybe your fatigue originates elsewhere. Understanding gupta usually come after using it for a while because one starts to get the results, and for the first time, one can "see" the patterns and negativity and stress cycle that gupta talks of. Such an understanding isnt possible in the beginning (thats why those who havent used it struggle to understand how it can work), but the understanding comes through use. In your instance, a few things are possible. 1) Your fatigue is based in an as yet undiscovered physical origin..OR 2) You need to take some complete time out. I dont know your circumstances so what I am saying on this point may not be relevent, but I will explain a little anyway. For Gupta to work MOST effectively when a person is in a constantly recurring/perpetuating crisis cycle, a "break" from all stress as much as possible is of enormous benefit. This is why Gupta advocates (where possible) a complete break with as much rest as possible for 3 months. If you are trying to carry on with life to some extent, you are constantly bringing in new stress, and not helping to "get the gupta ball rolling" My circumstances, whilst not allowing a perfect scenario as depicted by gupta, where such that I was able to pick and choose a little, the stress I was exposed to. I noticed early, that I would feel good after doing Gupta for a while, but then dip badly if i either stopped doing gupta, or exposed myself to stress that was greater than the accumulated benefit of gupta. gupta is a process that needs to bed in and build in the brain/mind/amygdala, and body. Presently, I can feel gupta penetrating into the deeper/older, more resistent layers, and as such i am able to do a lot more. In the early days this was not possible. Gupta isnt for everyone, but i believe everyone should give it a go. It either works or it wont. Either way you have benefit, for in not working, at least now you know; the wondering is over and you can move on. HOWEVER, before moving on it would be beneficial to consult with either gupta (i think unfortunately there is a fee), or discuss with some other members who are successful. Perhaps you can get a lifestyle/protocol combination that works more effectively. Would be interested in hearing a little history of your cfs and feedback about your gupta work.

[billoddie]

Jj85...your right. My case sounds very similar to yours. A few years ago, I had about a week where life was perfect. No stress. ALL my symptoms vanished. Stress returned...so did cfs. This brought home to me the stress connection. Exercise was the same. If I felt good enough to do any, i would pay a huge price and be back in bed. Just couldnt seem to maintain any low stress space. LIFE was stress!! Thats where Gupta came in. In the beginning, I made progress. I had a little space. But my depression/anxiety was going nuts. (anxiety increase is normal, as the amygdala "fights" at being reset) I had some ritalin in the cupboard that I had been prescribed about 2 years earlier but had stopped taking because I couldn't tolerate the side effects. A thought came just to try a small dose, because I had read that sometimes ritalin would help depression. I only took half a tab...and was transformed. Amazing!! After doing some research, I decided that dexamphetamine (adderal) would be a better choice, and so had some prescribed. It was more effective and the side effects were tolerable. (initial insomnia and weight loss/loss of appetite) Through trial and error, i settled on 2 doses a day of 10mg each. This is considered quite a low dose. Have a look at a website called "ask a patient". Absolutely brilliant. Here, there are 1000's of actual patient reviews of vast amounts of medication. Dex/adderal is considered positive by a good percentage of users. It satisfaction rating is far above things like ssri's, ssrni's, tricyclics, etc. The one recurrent worry/side effect is addiction. Long term (over 3 yrs) most acknowledge at least some level of addiction. Those hopelessly addicted, generally acknowledge some form of abuse, or are taking high doses. Those who kept to the MINIMUM THERAPEUTIC LEVEL, experience the least addiction. And this is the key. You need to TITRATE your dose. That is; start with the minimum, then as your body develops inevitable tolerance, slowly increase until you find your body's set operating level. How do you know this level? Ok...when you first start with stimulants, there is a certain high or euphoria that comes with them. This soon fades. DO NOT chase the high. Rather, accept this as normal, but assess for yourself if the medication remains largely effective. If so, leave it at that. More likely, you will just feel as if you need to increase the dose a little. Keep doing this (titrating), until you have the feeling that even though the high isnt there, the EFFECTIVENESS of the medication remains. If you just continue to chase the high, you will need massive doses just to get out of bed in the morning!! Thats not fun! For me, I started on 5mg in the morning (about 6.30 am), and then another 5mg at lunch. I then went to 10 mg morn, and 5 mg lunch. I am at 10 mg morn and lunch now. This level continues to work for me. There is no high, but it remains effective. This is the key...the MINIMUM THERAPEUTIC DOSE. I am still a little concerned about addiction long term though. I mean, i gotta say, I like this stuff. I look forward to my medication. I come from a background of drug addiction (one of the factors in my cfs, I ate about 400 pounds of dope leaf in cake over 8 yrs) and so i know what it means and feels like to CRAVE a drug. I dont crave dex, but look forward to its smoothing effects. But yes, addiction is a possibility. Before taking this drug, I VERY carefully considered this outcome. On balance I decided to take it. In hindsight, perhaps i should have stuck exclusively with Gupta. I was diagnosed with A.A.D.D (adult attention deficit disorder) anyway, and it has helped me immensely in this way. I dont know if the A.A.D.D is legit, or just part of my cfs. As you know, with this illness, there is just so much more than "being tired". (God if only it was just tiredness)I am getting close to the point where I am enjoying life. The dex on its own is not responsible for this. Gupta has been the key. Without doing the process, the dex is pulverized by a rapid increase in my cfs symptoms. This is how i know gupta works. The dex has been a valuable adjunct only, but I am very grateful for it.