Reconciling XMRV and Gupta

[Jj85]

Just a thought:

The study that just came out said that something like 3 out of 37 healthy people have XMRV, and 32 out of 37 sick people have it. While this definitely proves a correlation between being sick and having the virus, what's interesting is sort of lost in the numbers. If there are far more healthy people than sick people, it's actually still the case that the many--maybe even the majority--of people with XMRV are nevertheless healthy. Think of it this way.

Let's say that in a population of 20,000 people, 100 have CFS, and 19,900 are healthy. And let's say that everyone with CFS has the virus, but also that of the 19,900 that are healthy, 200 have it. These numbers don't match the study perfectly, but they're a good way of getting the point across. If this were the case, it would mean that you still have a 2/3 chance of being healthy even if you have the virus.

What this MIGHT mean is that you need more than just the virus to become sick. You also need to be very stressed so that the virus is able to kick into gear. And those who aren't stressed never get sick because the virus has no chance to express itself.

Again, just a thought. No matter the news that's coming out, I still know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my sickness is much worse when I'm stressed, and basically non-existent when I'm optimistic, happy, and totally unstressed. And so, the studies are not incompatible with my belief that CFS is ultimately about stress.

[gu3vara]

I believe that stress is a trigger, just like it is from many cancers as well. But it's a cofactor and I'm more convinced than ever that the bug is a mandatory element to develop CFS. It probably overwhelms the immune system too much at some point when facing major stressors in life. Fixing our life hygiene (removing stressors and eating well etc...) might not be enough to reverse the damage for the vast majority.

The mind and our body energy systems have an enormous effect on our health, no one can doubt that.

Does that mean it's psychosomatic, nope.

Remember that the polio virus cause disease in only a small part of infected people too, that's not that unique actually. It's certainly a much weaker bug than HIV, with slower replication and less mutation.

[kenvj]

I'm not at all convinced that XMRV is the cause of CFS. There are too many people who have recovered from CFS who did not have to have anti-viral treatment to get well. I am in agreement with Ashok Gupta that because CFS people have a stuffed up immune system that it allows the opportunistic XMRV virus to get into the system and stay there. I don't believe that CFS has one cause, there are a number of illnesses which have more or less the same symptoms as CFS. Stress appears to be the one thing that is a factor in all cases of Chronic Fatigue.

[gu3vara]

Tell that to the families where the mother and young kids all have CFS : "stress is your problem guys"
yeah right! :wank:

If your CFS is well diagnosed according to the Canadian consensus definition and all other conditions have been ruled out (including thyroid hormone resistance which can mimic CFS), you most likely have a neuroimmune disease, not a psychosomatic disease.

People recovering are probably able to fight those infections better than some other for genetic or environmental reasons, but being in a good state of mind is important to heal, probably where gupta fits for some in the equation.

Why aren't you cure by then if Gupta is right tell me?

[phoenix]

Jj, I like your line of thinking. It could also be that the virus is symptom or consequence of CFS and the reason that it's more prevalent, proportionally, in people with CFS is because they are more susceptible (either via immune alteration, genetics, as yet unknown factors, all of the above).

Like ken, it seems likely to me that CFS has multiple causes (so the AR isn't going to work for everyone).

Gu, there's no reason why something can't be neuroimmunological and what you are calling psychosomatic*. Gupta's theory is that the stress causes the neurological and immunological response in the body. And significant numbers of people do recover from those using his and other methods that are nothing to do with treating a viral infection.

*most people however think that psychosomatic means that it's all in the mind and there aren't really any physiological pathologies, so it's not a very useful term to use when talking about CFS IMO.

[gu3vara]

Stress alone doesn't explain why it often runs in family Phoenix. That's my point, this is only part of the explanation, way too simplistic explanation.

[kenvj]

How you can be so sure with something that has not yet been fully investigated beats me. For your information there was a guy who belonged to this forum whose wife and two kids suffered from CFS. The wife was cured by using Gupta and the kids were improving - so how do you explain that?
There is no reason for you to be so rude - wank to you too!

[gu3vara]

I don't mean to be rude, I'm just tired of hearing the same thing over and over about gupta while the vast majority as still sick in here. Some are a bit better with it, very few are really cured, it's awesome for them but this program shouldn't be advertised as a one size fits all solution for CFS, especially those severely affected and corresponding the Canadian consensus definition, with obvious neurologic symptoms and PEM.

I don't say that the program isn't useful to a certain level, I'm even sure it could be good even for someone with cancer or even aids, as it was proven that meditation did lower viral count on many patients with HIV. It's simply good for your immune system to relax. It seems that some has the natural ability to reverse CFS on their own and the vast majority can't, the point is we just don't know why yet.

There are plenty cases of mother with children with cfs as well as a high rate of those mother give birth to autistic children, so the stress theory alone just don't fit to me. That doesn't mean the programme can't be useful but there is another major factor. Don't tell me that stress is a factor for a 8 years old kid with CFS when his mother as it, look at a gene defect or an infection...

If Gupta is right then why aren't you all 100% better by now? That's the question, you have been here for a while right

[kenvj]

There is one small part of Gupta which I believe can be a cure for CFS, it would also explain why it can run in a family and also why it could affect small children. It is also a cause of stress and it also affects the immune system. I fully understood this only a few weeks ago and I am presently working with it - I'm making progress but I want to be more sure of the benefit to myself before I post about it. I feel sure that someone will oppose it or will trash it which is why I want to be more sure about it.

[gu3vara]

It's great if you are improving on the programme, that is the most important thing.

I'd like to hear your theory though. We could always say that mother transmitted her emotionnal trauma to her kids during pregnancy, but that's a bit far-fetched imo.

[annie]

Interesting Ken, look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences. cfs does run in my family so particularly interested.
I was sad to hear of the earthquake in New Zealand and hope it was nowhere near you. Very good that there was no loss of life.

[kenvj]

Hi Annie - we were well away from the quake thank goodness. I think the main reason there was no loss of life (there is still one person in Intensive Care) is the time it struck in the early hours of the morning - had it struck at 9AM instead there would have been a very different picture. Amazing to think that this quake was the same size as the Haiti quake but most of our buildings are built with earthquakes in mind. I believe we get 1,400 quakes a year but only 150 are felt and most of those are mostly just small tremors.

[Jj85]

Glad to hear you weren't harmed, Ken.

I think that we have to recognize that it might take both a virus AND stress to trigger CFS. They might both be necessary factors. My point is that the fact that we've found healthy people who in fact have XMRV might suggest that you can have this virus but still not be ill IF you remain sufficiently unstressed. In other words, very stressed people that don't have XMRV will remain healthy, and unstressed people who do have XMRV will also remain healthy. It might be that only when you are both stressed and are carrying the virus that you can become ill.

This interpretation would explain why CFS certainly seems to have a "viral" element to it--spreads within families and communities, is often triggered by another illness which further weakens the immune system, has many of the classic symptoms of virus. And it would also explain how Gupta's techniques still work (I'm a huge proponent) even if the virus is a necessary condition for being ill.

Just as a minor update, I'll say for myself that I've continued to improve using Gupta-like techniques (I don't do the stop method, or meditate, but soon I'll write a longer post explaining how I've used Gupta's general approach to really help).

[neil25]

I completley agree with gu3vara about his comments on the gupta programme. While it may help the condition and I don't believe its the cure. CFS is a a lot more complex than reducing the stress and adrenaline levels. I believe xmrv might play a part. I have met people who have gotten much better using gupta to point they were full health but later down the years have relapsed which is why I don't think gupta is the permanent cure. Plus those people had to carry on the techniques for life if they stopped them there health would be worse.

The fact of the matter is if gupta was the cure why are so many people on here looking for answers and still posting on here. I think people want to look to gupta because it gives them some sort of hope. I don't blame them because this illness is extremely difficult to live with and when there's nothing else out. Plus they have heard of people getting better from gupta. I think a better timescale to judge would be ten years if someone was better from gupta how long did it stay that way most testmonials only comment a year or two after. If the person experience no symptoms from cfs after ten years I think it would be safe to then say there cured. a year or two after isnt long enough in my opnion.

[annie]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-taysi ... l-11204884

This was on the b.b.c main site this morning. Seems that more and more proof is coming out. I'm delighted to see that the U.K. is joining in with scientific research.
Way to go and I'm finding it hard to be patient!