The Gupta Program and Meditation Technique

[kenvj]

In his program Ashok teaches meditation based on breathing. There are however other meditation techniques such as the Yoga "Om Mani Padme Hum" mantra and of course Transcendental Meditation.
Have any of you retrainers used other meditation techniques with Ashok's program? I sometimes have great difficulty calming my brain down using the breathing technique and instead us Transcendental Meditation which seems to work better for me.
Ashok, if you read this you might like to comment.

[Sylvia]

I do meditate twice a day for a total of an hour and a half.

I do not do Ashoks meditations as it would conflict with my spiritual path, of which my meditation is a great part. There is to be no other techniques but which I have learned.

Yet the main Amygdala retraining is what I use. I have improved over the last 5 months, which I am so grateful for. The technique is something that in no way conflicts so I have been using it as diligently as I can.

[kenvj]

Thankyou for that information Sylvia. I thought it likely that it didn't much matter what kind of meditation is was so long as it works for you.
Thanks again.

[niaholt]

Hi Ken,
I have just been reading a book about a woman who conquered agoraphobia after 13 yrs thru the famous Dr. Ainsley Meares in Melbourne who used meditation with all his patients to conquer anxiety.

This woman wrote that when she attempted the meditation, panic would rise up in her and he assured her it was transient anxiety and not to worry about it. He quoted to her " we sit quietly and let the tension go. As we let go, old defences alert our subconscious mind. This alert can trigger alarm bells causing adrenaline to be released together with a physical response to a desire to " fight or flee"
The author quotes "So we are jolted back to reality, disconcerted and puzzled that anxiety can occcur when we are meant to be relaxed. In fact this event was an indication of progress. "

I know many people who say they cant relax with meditation...I guess persitence is the key and it does not matter how you can achieve it with whatever form of meditation that suits you.

I noticed a big difference in my anxiety after one week of Ashoks meditation as I had had a major adrenaline collapse in May...bed for 10 wks...heart rate thru the roof and high BP. Nothing worked to get the the heart rate down like Ashoks meditation. I still have my other CFS symptoms and I live in hope. I will meditate forever as it has made me happier and more confident and it is though I have to get to know a new person......Is this a beginning of my recovery.? I wish I knew as the symptoms are still disrupting my life after about 4mths on the program. I will NOT surrender.

Cheers
Nia

[Recovery Soon]

I am perplexed by the meditation dilemma as it relates to the Amygdala theory of CFS. For example, I have been meditating regularly (daily) for 10 years, and came down with CFS about 2.5 years ago. Similarly, there are many other Pre-CFS meditators who contracted the condition. One famous example is a Buddhist Nun, and best selling Meditation author, Pema Chodron, who has been meditating reclusively for over 30 years. It's hard to imagine a less reactive amygdala than a 30 year meditator.

I guess my question is, how can long term meditators contract CFS, if the amygdala is the source??? Someone like the author I mentioned has devoted a lifetime to soothing and calming the mind, yet the illness sprung up and persisted for 20 of those years nonetheless.

[kenvj]

I've also been meditating on and off for many years. It has helped me a lot with anxiety. Meditating may well calm the amygdala but it does not break the negative thought cycle as Ashok points out - it helps calm the amygdala down but its the Amygdala Retraining that breaks the cycle.
I'm beginning to think that the best form of meditation to use with Ashok's program is the one thats suits the individual best.

[Sylvia]

Recovery Soon,

Here are a couple of thoughts about Pema. Of course I am just guessing.

Pema could have much pressure, shoulds and musts regarding her spiritual responsibilities and feelings of should be without the illness.

Perhaps she thinks she uses acceptance of symptoms but the acceptance is too focused and noticing--- soften and flow run amok sorta. And definately a background of fear of the illness/symptoms without allowing any sort of recognition of that because to fear the symptoms would be "unspiritual"

I'm sure her spiritual ambitions could have felt thwarted by CFS. So a sense of hurry up come on already.

Likely a bunch of bull on my part. Sorry but wanted to attempt some thoughts about it.

[Recovery Soon]

Sylvia,

What you said is possible. I think most Buddhists train in living a life that is committed to not attaching to anything. In fact, to just flow with the spontaneous unfolding of life in each moment, and in so doing achieve liberation from the mind. Part of the mind that is freed in a clinical sense as I understand is the reptilian brain, the limbic system, in other words, the amygdala. By systematically observing all thoughts, positive and negative, the mind's conditioning is gradually extinguished. At the far end of this spectrum would be enlightenment or nirvana, complete freedom from any negative mind states. (In fact this is why many Buddhists say that meditation clears bad Karma, which is another way of saying that it reverses negative conditioning).

Whether this is actually possible to the degree of enlightenment is anyone's guess. And i certainly am not trying to push forth any religious ideologies. But what is clear from the medical research is that meditation has clinically shown to calm down the limbic system, the amygdala, which brings a sense of renewal, resilience, confidence and well being. This is why I do not understand how CFS could spring up in the mind of a long term active meditator, no less a Buddhist a nun, who is working on these principles daily at the deepest of levels. Maybe as you said, there is attachment to liberation, which can be just another form of perfectionism. But it would seem that all that meditation would yield enough resilience to ward off an illness whose root cause is an over-active mind. If not, it sure would seem a waste of all those years, and effort.

Ken pointed out his long term meditation practice, and also his long term anxiety. Maybe its possible that meditation is not as effective in of itself as a tool to calm the amygdala, as claimed by the meditation community.

I'm not sure what the answer is.

[kenvj]

I don't think that being a regular meditator for a number of years would prevent a person from suffering a traumatised amygdala if that person were to experience a sufficiently extreme severe traumatic event. Some event that was outside their ability to control.
Just my 2 cents worth on that particular subject.

[efly]

The Amygdala is damaged in childhood....and seems to be ok until the neural pathways are changed by immune activation. Maybe the Buddist nuns brain was damaged in childhood[and that why she became a nun] but was reactivated after an immune stimulus ????
Thoughts ?
efly

[kenvj]

I agree efly - I think its possible that happened to me and the situation was made worse my later traumas.

[Recovery Soon]

I don't believe Ashok's theory links childhood amygdala damage to CFS.

I believe he is saying that the amygdala is over-reactive because of stress and becomes conditioned to the immune response. This is the "trauma" that changes the neural pathways.

Sure, it's possible that someone could be very stress prone because of a bad childhood. But meditation is supposed to calm the whole limbic system, and actually refigures the neural pathways. That's why I don't see how the Buddhist Nun fits in to the equation.

[Ashok Gupta]

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all your contributions on this thread, I find it an interesting debate and will add my thoughts. My musings on this could fill pages and pages but I will try and keep it short and to the point!

Meditation can calm the whole brain down, and probably does reduce the risk of conditioned traumas in the amygdala....BUT IT DOES NOT FULLY ELIMINATE THE RISK. This is the point. So overall I am sure that people who meditate probably have fewer traumatic conditioning events, etc, and are less prone, but some will slip through the net.

Even people who have meditated over many years may have issues to do with their spiritual path, their lives, their direction, attachments, etc. They probably still have times in their lives where adversity strikes intensely and emotional trauma may occur. The ego sometimes denies this, but internally there can be a struggle where people feel that they should have moved passed their emotional responses, yet they still occur. And there can be guilt and self-criticism about this which makes it worse.

If a regular meditator suddenly has a stressful period in their lives, combined with a physical stressor, then a trauma can still occur in the amygdala, although the probability will be lower as mentioned. Once the trauma is there, it is like a conductor controlling a choir. The conductor can lower the sound of the whole choir, but if one member of the choir keeps singing loudly out of tune, then that member is out of the conductor's control. So meditation is the conductor lowering the sound of the whole choir, the loud out-of-tune choir member is the conditioned trauma in the amygdala. The conductor will have to have some intensive one on one sessions with the out-of-tune choir member to control their responses - and that is amygdala retraining.

Meditation will support amygdala retraining, but retraining a specific conditioned amygdala response may require a much more specific intervention such as amygdala retraining.

With respect to childhood, there is some evidence that how reactive our stress systems will be may be a combination of genetics, gestation experiences, upbringing, childhood events, etc. But we are not a slave to this. I believe that things like regular meditation, yogic breathing, etc can gradually reset these levels over our lifetimes (this would be the equivalent of reducing conditioning over time). So it could be that regular meditators may still be prone to amygdala traumas if their starting baseline reactivity was set higher as a result of the factors I have mentioned.

Anyway, would be delighted to hear other people's views!

Ashok

[Recovery Soon]

All good points. I like the orchestra analogy. I guess nothing makes you totally immune from anything, even meditation.

[shartrooz]

[quote="kenvj"]In his program Ashok teaches meditation based on breathing. There are however other meditation techniques such as the Yoga "Om Mani Padme Hum" mantra and of course Transcendental Meditation.
Have any of you retrainers used other meditation techniques with Ashok's program? I sometimes have great difficulty calming my brain down using the breathing technique and instead us Transcendental Meditation which seems to work better for me.
Ashok, if you read this you might like to comment.[/quote]

I am very interested in hearing Ashok's reply to this. I have been incorporating my own spiritual beliefs into the meditation - being in the presence of God. Seems to work best for me, so I assume it is OK. Any reason not to? Or any other visualizations? Sometimes I find it helpful to picture myself sitting in nature, face turned up to the sun. I can actually feel the warmth of the sun when I do this, and it somehow keeps me focused.
thanks