CFS= Phobia of Symptoms

[Recovery Soon]

I've had positive effects too. But what you're describing is far from a cure. Because you can walk more than you could before is a very compromised version of recovery.

When the toxic swings and symptoms end for good, That is recovery. Not to minimize your improvements.

I've acknowledged that there are benefits to this program, but not as they are described in the program, that I have seen.

And I don't recall the fully recovered testimonials.

Please persuade the people you know who have fully cured to join the forum, so we can exchange directly with them, and they can shed light on how it happened. No one here has been able to do that, because no one here has been fully cured. It's all friend of a friend anecdotes.

[cfs_since_1998]

Yes there are stress response abnormalities in CFS. That doesn't mean the amygdala is to blame or that this program is a cure. Did Gupta adminster any lab tests to see if these abnormalities had been corrected in the allegedly recovered patients? No. There are also immune system abnormalities in CFS. Did Gupta administer any lab test to see if those biomarkers had disappeared? No. Did he measure oxygen uptake before and after treatment, which is also known to be impaired in CFS? No. So all we have to go on is some vague testimonials from people who don't really seem to be recovered or maybe never had CFS in the first place. Ever hear of the placebo effect? Not to mention that Gupta spends a considerable amount of time convincing people that they are 100% recovered when they feel only 80% better. That *IS* brainwashing.

morethansteph, you wrote:

"I fully recovered..."

"...(my symptoms) show up anywhere from immediately when I stop the exertion period to sometime the next day."

You just said that you fully recovered, then you said, in the present tense, that you have post-exertion symptoms. Why the contradiction? It sounds like you aren't recovered after all.

[Recovery Soon]

I realize how negative all of this sounds. I know my intention is not to take the wind out of anyone's sails.

Again, I think there is value in the program, and I have benefited. I am glad Gupta made this program, and I sincerely hope everyone continues to benefit.

But to be perfectly blunt, I am pissed off that he makes the case throughout the program that 100% Full Cures in 6 months are the rule, and not the exception.

If we have learned anything from these forums, we have learned that this is not the case. Yes, people are experiencing benefits. Maybe a certain percentage have even fully recovered. But to state over the course of 12 DVD's that most people will fully recover in 6 months is misleading, and frustrating.

When I hit the 6 month mark, I thought I was in the minority based on what he had said. Once this forum was created it became clear I am very representative of the majority.

What I am trying to do is get at the truth. Maybe his research with Dr. Lapp will shed some light. But for now, I don't know what to believe.

But to be clear, I am not advocating anyone not try this program, or give up any hope if you are on it. I am continuing to use it despite my frustration. It certainly has worked better than any nutritional aid or medication I have tried.

[Kiwi]

Hi Recovery Soon


I must say I completely understand that bit of your frustration, because I do not quite understand that time limit either. For me healing is something individual. And it takes time. There is probably no physical cause for that, it is not necessary to take that long to heal. But it is possible that the soul doesn't travel that fast.

There is that story of the white man who travelled through africa. He took three Africans with him onto his travel to carry his luggage. After 3 days the three men carrying the luggage refused to walk further. No water, no food could make them walk any longer. They said: Our bodies have walked that long way, but our souls haven't arrived yet. We want to wait for them now.

When I read your sentences, then I get the feeling you need to listen to your soul right now, where your joy carries you. Sure, being healthy is a great thing, but it is not everything. Maybe your soul just wants a bit of rest? Sometimes illness has its deep reason. Something we need to find before we can heal.

Good luck

Kiwi

[Kiwi]

Hi Recovery Soon


I must say I completely understand that bit of your frustration, because I do not quite understand that time limit either. For me healing is something individual. And it takes time. There is probably no physical cause for that, it is not necessary to take that long to heal. But it is possible that the soul doesn't travel that fast.

There is that story of the white man who travelled through africa. He took three Africans with him onto his travel to carry his luggage. After 3 days the three men carrying the luggage refused to walk further. No water, no food could make them walk any longer. They said: Our bodies have walked that long way, but our souls haven't arrived yet. We want to wait for them now.

When I read your sentences, then I get the feeling you need to listen to your soul right now, where your joy carries you. Sure, being healthy is a great thing, but it is not everything. Maybe your soul just wants a bit of rest? Sometimes illness has its deep reason. Something we need to find before we can heal.

Good luck

Kiwi

[Recovery Soon]

Kiwi,

It sounds like a lot of our souls aren't catching up with our bodies on this program.

I think my soul needs to speak the truth, and what I am seeing from others and experiencing for myself is different from what is said on those DVD's. And I can't settle for explanations that mistake my honesty for fear.

But your sentiment is very sweet and I thank you for it.

[Sylvia]

Recovery Soon,

You ever think that you are just a sugar water rat? Ha Ha.

But seriously post exertion/exercise problem you describe is an immune response right? Remember the rats that got a virus with the sugar water and then just the sugar water and their immune system still reacted. THAT is conditioning and I'd say your 3 day crash after exercise is CONDITIONING. And as long as you keep asserting, no, no there must be SOMETHING wrong other then amygdala/ones own thinking then that will stay true for you. Just stop stop stop thinking about it that way.

Or really WHO CARES you can't exercise? I don't! If you can work, love, pray, what more need there be of life? Just my opinion. Greater stamina and muscles than one needs to work, love and pray is just vanity.

I looked in the program book on. page 9..." I believe the final recovery success rate will be around 70-80% after 1 year."

Plain enough.

And really reading this particular forum, there are only about a dozen semi-regular contributors yes? Hardly a sample. Besides the typical irate ones "don't take my disease away it is really real you know foot stamping and whinning types."

This program isn't for everyone--I'd say only 10-20% of CFS'rs because the other 80% will defend forever they have some disease and NEVER could it be a thinking/emotional problem, which it definately is or there would not be such improvements.

Recovery Soon, I'd say change your approach or figure you are never giong to be successful with this program. But don't stay in between defending your position of post exertional malaise being something...

There is a good forum called tmshelp I believe based on the work of Dr. John Sarno that goes on a lot about conditioning and going on with life etc. It could be somewhat useful to some here.

Another Retrainer, improving all the time at 6 1/2 months,

Sylvia

[cfs_since_1998]

CFS is an emotional problem, oh really? Care to cite something scientific? How do you explain spontaneous onset? One day you are fully healthy, the next day you are fully sick...oh, it must be an emotional problem. Is that why people with CFS have reduced oxygen capacity, because they have an emotional problem?

Nobody who tries to defend this program can come up with any reasons of substance. They just keep grasping at straws. Like I said before, it has become a cult.

"But don't stay in between defending your position of post exertional malaise being something... "

Postexertional malaise is a primary marker for CFS and is pretty much the only symptom that distinguishes it from other illnesses. You expect him to just ignore that?

[Recovery Soon]

Sylvia,

Yes, I'm a classic sugar, water rat.

To your point, I have given plenty of time where I had no anticipation whatsoever of anything, yet like clockwork this post reaction has persisted. It is only after such a long time that I have come to this conclusion, not because I have been protesting or anticipating or obsessing/fearing the whole way through.

The sugar rat comparison is very useful here. The reason I point to the time delay is because it onsets so suddenly after a day and a half. So, yes, there is likely a conditioned response, but to what? If it was to the exertion itself, should it not occur shortly afterwards? Or if it is the fear, then should that not trigger a reaction shortly afterwards? But such a sudden onset, occurring so predictably, so long after the incident leads me to believe that the conditioned response is to something other than exertion or fear. It would appear to me to be connected to whatever the body releases a day and a half after exercise. The reason this is important is because I don't think fear is part of that equation. I certainly don't feel afraid. I wasn't thinking after the exercise "Oh God, here comes the reaction!" I just exercise, go about my life, and BAM.

Yes, It is frustrating this long into the program. I can't stop, stop, stop forever, and regularly meditate, without more of a reward system in place to sustain this effort (if we're going to stick with the Pavlovian model).

Exercise may be vain to you. But to me its a clear marker of where one is on the road of recovery. If I was improving on any objective measure, that would be it. As CFS since 1998 pointed out, no bio-markers have changed. And my day to day symptoms fluctuate as they always have. So exercise and sleep are as good a recovery barometer as I can think of.

To your point about agreeing to buy in fully or move on, I understand where you're coming from. But I feel most true continuing the program with faith, while also maintaining my integrity/honesty about what I am experiencing and seeing from others. I don't want to be faithless or a fool. I want to be honest and call out what I see as inconsistencies and/or incongruent statement from Gupta and/or anyone else. Not to be right, but to be real.

As far as there not being any recoveries if the theory isn't true- I think CFS since 1998 was right regarding the placebo effect. There's no denying this can be giving us our improvements (of which mine have plateaued for many, many months).

Yet, at the same time I understand how Sarno/TMS theories rely solely on faith to heal what is thought to be an emotional cause. And to your point specifically, how it might be more useful to just drop the dialogue and go with wherever it takes me as the best path forward.

Believe me, I've done that for a long time.

[Recovery Soon]

Sylvia,

One more point about exercise. You questioned the importance of it. I gather from your posts that you struggle with anxiety/panic. I have mentioned that I fully recovered from that disorder 10 years ago, while using a taped program. A strong emphasis was placed on exercise, as it is extremely effective in lowering stress. Ultimately exercise was one of the biggest aids in my recovery. Nothing I have found, meditation included, has been as effective in lowering stress for me. So to have that aspect of my life taken away has been a tremendous loss.

You mention love and prayer as the only essentials. Well, in some ways, exercise for me was like a spiritual practice. It helped me feel very deeply connected, and was a daily ritual that gave me enormous pleasure and satisfaction.

I suspect if you had the capacity to exercise now, it would help you overcome your anxiety issues much quicker.

[Rmx3000]

You keep saying you dont want to knock the wind out of people, but in reality you are. Your post are very negative. I can truly understand your frustration but maybe this program isn't for you.

I personally think, to get more answers, someone should rip the dvd and put it on pirate bay(a interent site to download files) or some torrent .



But seriously though someone really should

[Rmx3000]

edit

[damask-rose]

My point was that I [i]can[/i] now exercise without post-exertional malaise. I'm not so fit yet that I can run a marathon, but see it that I've switched off the fan, and the fan is slowly coming to a halt. After exercise I now experience a normal, healthy tiredness and no other after effects.

[Recovery Soon]

[quote="Rmx3000"]You keep saying you dont want to knock the wind out of people, but in reality you are. Your post are very negative. I can truly understand your frustration but maybe this program isn't for you.

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But I'm not going to stop posting because you can't separate logic from negativity.

If you're faith is so weak that my open dialogue is preventing your recovery, maybe the program isn't for you.

[Sylvia]

[quote][i]You keep saying you dont want to knock the wind out of people, but in reality you are. Your post are very negative. I can truly understand your frustration but maybe this program isn't for you.

I personally think, to get more answers, someone should rip the dvd and put it on pirate bay(a interent site to download files) or some torrent .



But seriously though someone really should[/i][/quote]


rmx3000 Ashok deserves to make his money from this program. Not to be given freely away. That is wrong. 200 bucks is a ridiculously inexpensive program for something that really helps CFS.