CFS= Phobia of Symptoms

[Sylvia]

I was just thinking of how to boil down in as few words as possible what IS Amygdala retraining.

I think that CFS= Phobia of Symptoms

The cure is desensitization of symptoms.

Amygdala retraining is a brilliant, targeted system of desensitization.

If you have Panic attacks you are Phobic of fear,

Agoraphobic you are phobic of fear

But in these you try to shrink your world to avoid and avoid. Finally a nervous illness where there is no avoid, it is constant fear of ones own fear.

In CFS there seemed to be no escape of symptoms and plenty of phobia (fear). Again a constant fear of ones symptoms (which is fear but doesn't feel like fear of course but physical symptoms generated by some damaged glands or stealth virus or or or.......)

The cure for the different anxiety states, which CFS is one in kind is desensitization. Acceptance, fearless.

Recently I had a dip---the shortest dip I ever had in 20 years, what would have been a week or weeks was a couple days. The big diffence was I wasn't AFRAID of my knocked down debilitated state. I didn't care about it at all, I knew it would improve and then back to even more improvement with Amygdala retraining. What an almighty weapon is this retraining!

Ashok has devised a fantastic program, that I don't believe can be improved upon. Ashok Gupta is a healer.

[Recovery Soon]

The connection between CFS and other nervous illnesses is an interesting one.

I had panic attacks quite severely for 2 years straight about a decade ago. I bought a program called Attacking Anxiety- hosted by Lucinda Basset of The Midwest Center for Anxiety and Stress. Using the program I gradually lowered my sensitization (my fear of fear) and within a couple months was completely (and miraculously) cured of the condition. I went from being terrified to enter an airplane to jumping out of one in less than 6 months). I have never had a panic attack since, and am pretty certain I never will.

When I first watched the Gupta Program I drew many comparisons between the CFS and anxiety disorder. It was clear then, as it is now, that big dips are accompanied by high levels of anxiety.

After 15 plus months on the program, I do not think I am fearful of the symptoms. The fear is not really there, yet the condition remains.

Which opens the question as to whether or not the mechanics of CFS are comparable to anxiety/panic disorder.

If it was then CBT should be significantly effective, as it is with anxiety disorders. But clinical studies, (especially recent ones) have not shown it to be.

There seems to be a definite connection with CFS and the nervous system. The more stress you have, the worse symptoms get. But for me the reverse has not been true. When I am very relaxed for extended periods the illness does not ever fully pass, like the panic attacks did. And the post exercise flood of toxicity is just as strong as ever (even though I rarely attempt exercise).

So, at this point, I don't know what to make of the underlying condition. When I first started the program I was sure the process of recovery would be similar to what it was for Panic Disorder. It would gradually lessen until it was fully extinguished. Now I just don't know.

Of course I am not saying it is not possible. Just saying with my experience to date it's difficult to say.

[Recovery Soon]

One more point...

Regarding the post exercise flood of toxicity following exercise:

The fact that it occurs 36 hours later is what I find most intriguing. If it occurred immediately after it would make sense. It would mean my body is not healed yet, or I am sensitized to the activity and my body is emiting a response. Or perhaps there is some sort of fearful response that triggers the symptoms, as is suggested in the program.

Yet, a 36 hour delayed reaction is quite baffling. Not necessarily tiredness, but severe sore throats, headaches, run of the mill flu symptoms and highly toxic feelings (even though I am not mentally anticipating this reaction). It would seem to suggest that in CFS there is some conditioned response to whatever the body naturally releases 36 hours after exercise. How else can the delay be explained? If it was simply a matter of fearful anticipation, then the symptoms should likely occur shortly after the event I think. Not a day and a half later. Like clockwork.

It all seems to suggest to me that something is at play beyond just fear. Some connection which has yet to be identified.

[cfs_since_1998]

I couldn't disagree more. Saying CFS is caused by phobia of CFS is like saying Cancer is caused by being afraid of getting Cancer. This whole amygdala retraining idea is based on nothing but pure speculation and conjecture with no scientific evidence supporting it. I haven't even seen anybody on the forum recover, even though Ashok promises nearly a 100% recovery rate within 6 months, and there are a large number of people here doing it. It's like a cult.

[morethansteph]

to cfs_since_1998:
There is actually a wealth of scientific evidence about the mind body connection in regard to the stress response, that the Gupta Program is based on. (I haven't used the program, but have read about it). You might want to read The Source by Dr. Woodsen Merrel to help you understand why these people are experiencing real results. It's not a cult, they are not being brain washed. I fully recovered for 8 years using a more archaic and less thorough method based on the same principles. You may not be hearing from the fully recovered users of the Gupta Program because they are out finally enjoying living their lives. They don't need internet support groups anymore. javascript:emoticon(':D')

to Recovery Soon:
It's interesting that your post exercise symptoms show up so regularly and 36 hours later. Mine show up anywhere from immediately when I stop the exertion period to sometime the next day.

[Recovery Soon]

morethansteph,

Literally a day and a half later I suddenly start feeling toxins draining into my system as though I were on an IV. I would love to be blood tested prior to exercise and again right after the symptoms kick-in, as I feel there would likely be very revealing data in the difference.

The interesting thing I have learned from this program is that my body is remarkably still quite strong. Prior to the program I thought it was shot. But now I can see that when the symptoms are in full cycle, it only appears that my body is very weak. The weakness is temporary. In other words, if CFS lifted tomorrow, I could easily begin running, working out etc...

Only makes this condition that much more bizarre.

[Sylvia]

The sad thing is Ashok says not everyone will be fully recovered. I'd have to look it up in the book, but I think he says 60-80%.

But you'll never know unless you work at it for some time.

[Recovery Soon]

Ashok's recovery definition is murky at best. By his definition I'm recovered now.

He also says "the amygdala can always be retrained" which means that those who don't recover did not follow the program closely or longly enough.

He has basically stated that anyone who puts the time in with the proper mindset "will get there."

Based on the experiences of these boards, its really hard to see evidence of that. Sure people who recover leave the community. But this community has remained consistent for quite some time now. And yet, as CFS since 1998 pointed out, I haven't seen a single person recover. Not one. That's kind of a difficult point to gloss over.

My point is not to dampen anyone's hope, by any stretch, because I think hope is very important with this condition. And hope surely seems to make one better than despair, which is unfortunately a very common result. Hope and faith have had a very positive effect on my condition.

At the same time I'm trying to keep these discussions real, and not hang on to Gupta's words like Gospel, when his program has not shown the results he is claiming, in my eyes, or in a scientific setting. Or even in the personal anecdotes of this board. Even his video testimonials are comprised of relatively new patients all expressing great confidence and hope that they will recover, but haven't quite gotten there yet. Nor has he provided the follow-ups from them as promised on these boards. God knows how anyone of them are doing now. I'd like to see if 60-80% of them no longer have any symptoms of CFS. And I'd like to hear it in their own words.

There seems to be a natural enthusiasm for the program, as it rings very true when you watch it. And because few practitioners ever claim with such confidence the near certainty of full recovery as Gupta does, it all seems very possible, even inevitable at times.

But there's a lot of wiggle room with ambiguous definitions of recovery, and too many contradictory statements. It's a terrific theory, and time will sort it all out. I hope it is all that he says. I sincerely do. I have put 15 months of hard and faith into it. I'd like to see a better return on that investment. Although, to be fair, I still believe I am much better with the program then without it, which is no small thing.

I can promise you that panic disorder CAN be overcome 100% by ANYONE willing to put the effort in with the right mindset. One doesn't need a lot of faith to believe that. There's piles and piles of full recoveries. I'm one of them. It's just a matter of whether you're willing to do the work and persevere.

And so, there's no reason why this should not also be the case with the Gupta program, if the underlying condition is simply a matter of fear.

[Kiwi]

Hi Silvia

I agree, it is sort of Activityphobia in its worst extreme.

Best wishes

Kiwi

[Recovery Soon]

Kiwi,

How do you explain those who are not afraid of activity, but still have CFS?

I don't have a fear of activity. But I have CFS.

How is this possible?

[Kiwi]

I did not feel the fear too, it is sort of hidden. Fear doesn't always feel like what we consider fear to feel like: Fear can make you feel just uneasy doing something, or like your driving with a car which has still the handbreakes on. You can also feel depersonalised or like in a fog with the fear.

I'm not recovered, by no means, but fear is just an element I cannot neglect in all the process.

[Recovery Soon]

I agree when I first started the program I felt a strong aversion/fear of doing activities, after having been conditioned from so many bad experiences. But after a very long time spent interrupting these thoughts using the program I'm confident I have extinguished this fear.

But the CFS hasn't gone away. Although the anxiety surrounding the condition has subsided considerably, which has made it more bearable. But I don't really consider that recovery.

[Kiwi]

Well, I think if you don't feel recovered, then you don't feel recovered...that is for sure

I have come a long way through all that CFS stuff and I've also learnt to be humble. I must confess I can't tell you right away what sort of blockade your having. I still think it is possible to be a fear on a deep level.

I definitely wish you good luck on your journey.

[Recovery Soon]

ditto

[damask-rose]

I don't have the same problem as Recovery Soon in having come across people who've recovered from CFS using either Ashok's programme, or the Lightning Process which is very similar. I've met several people who have recovered completely from severe cases of CFS, and several who have not quite recovered, but have improved tremendously. Also, though it's a while since I've watched the testimonials, I remember in particular that one of the girls was able to play tennis again, and another was able to dance all night, so there are two examples.

As far as exercise tolerance, although I'm not 100% recovered, I can go for long walks now without any ill after-effects. Walking is exercise! I can stride about the countryside up steep hillsides and for hours and even though my legs sometimes feel wobbly, I never get any after-effects.
Before I started the AR, I couldn't walk the few yards up to my front gate without feeling ill afterwards. To me this is evidence that the programme is working.