Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia

kenvj · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Shortness of breath.

The last couple of months or so I was feeling a lot better and started doing jobs around the yard, jobs I hadn't been able to do for ages.
Suddenly I had two days of intense fatigue, both mental and physical. That cleared up but a few days later it was back plus that I started to have a terrible time of it getting shortness of breath just as I was starting to drop off to sleep. I ended up having awful insomnia with this problem, even in the daytime if I tried to have a sleep because I was so tired as soon as I started to drop in would come this chest heaving for breath. My doctor thought it was just anxiety but I'm not so sure about that - I didn't seem to be having axiety until some days after this problems started. I know that CFS can have shortness of breath as a symptom so I'm wondering if I've had a massive relapse.
Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this?
Its driving me bananas at the moment.
Thanks Ken

Tina · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject:

so you were improving after you started being treated for the breathing disorder?
i remember you talking about it before. Ive never had breathing problems, but when i overexert, i feel like i have no energy left in my body.
Maybe you just started doing to much at once. If i were you i would go slow and try to work my way up to doing things.
Sometimes when i over do it, i dont feel it until a couple days later, then i cant move.
Its good that you are having improvement though.
Let us know how it goes

kenvj · Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject:

Thanks for your remarks Tina. Yes I think I did try to do too much at once. I now seriously doubt that it was a breathing disorder but I find the breathing exercises do help me a lot and they also help to control anxiety. Since I wrote this latest post I have spend 24 hours in hospital. Close to a heart attack - I think the shortness of breath was to do with anxiety - I've been put on some extra drugs for my heart and this all seems to have settled me down. All of my syptoms, anxiety, fatigue, shortness of breath, insomnia, are all symptoms of CFS - so I think the whole lot was brought on by overdoing things. Maybe I'll learn to take is steady.
Thanks again
Ken

mike4u · Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject:

i noticed that ever since ive had chronic fatigue, i have had some anxiety problems. I always feel tense and my muscles wont relax. I think thats a pretty common thing among cfsers. I havent had a full blown anxiety attack, but definetely have a harder time dealinging with situations that i never had a problem with before.

kenvj · Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject:

Mike, seeing that CFS is caused by stress and perpetuated by stress I guess its not surprising that anxiety comes with the mix. Just another one of those things we have to put up with I guess.
Ken

Maynard · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject:

Hey Ken!

Does it feel like right on the verge of falling asleep, you suddenly feel something resembling a short lung spasm, then perhaps sit bolt upright gasping, pulse racing, with a sensation of shortness of breath? Perhaps with a sensation you can't get enough air into your lungs?

I don't know if this is what you're experiencing, but if it sounds at all familiar, it's most likely hyperventilation syndrome (HVS).

Hyperventilation syndrome is a common [i]cause[/i] of chronic fatigue... It leads to adrenal fatigue, magnesium depletion, poor blood circulation to the brain, etc. and it's chronic, in that you become habituated to very low CO2 levels, and treatment involves reversing this process through controlled underbreathing...

The shortness of breath on falling asleep seems to be to do with the body trying to rebalance your blood gases too quickly... In your awake state, you're habitually overbreathing all of the time (either breathing too fast or too deeply - or taking occassional sighs/yawns), which leads to low CO2 levels (and low celluar Oxygen levels too as CO2's necessary for Oxygen transport), and as soon as you're ready to fall asleep, and your breathing slows and goes onto a relaxed autopilot mode, your CO2 levels are so low, you breathe out and the signal to breathe in again (which is triggered by CO2 normaly) doesn't come along soon enough -> your body thinks you've stopped breathing.

The broncho-spasm sensation seems to be a muscle spasm from unconscious over-exertion of breathing muscles in the day.

Breathing exercises along the lines of yoga and tai chi often provide short relief, but invariably make things much worse in the mid-to-long-term by encouraging deep breathing, (which is usually the cause of the problem).

HVS is a major cause of anxiety too; although with both anxiety and CFS there's something of a two-way relationship, (both contributing to the syndromal nature of this condition).

The best treatment out there is the Buteyko Technique - which is also used to treat asthma and panic disorder.

The books everyone needs are:

[i]Hyperventilation Syndrome - by Dinah Bradley[/i]

and

[i]Close Your Mouth - by Patrick Mckeown[/i]

Close Your Mouth explains the Buteyko technique in full - it's basically the exercise free divers use to increase their breath holding time... Takes patience and commitment, but it's a major cause of both fatigue and anxiety you can take care of relativiely easily... (Magnesium deficiency is also involved in a cause & effect relationship with: anxiety, HVS and fatigue - so 300-400mg+ /day magnesium can help in the long-term)

This is very common, but if it doesn't quite fit with what you're experiencing, it may be worth investigating mold or dust allergies which might be triggered by your pillow... Or perhaps an obstructive problem... The fact your doctor's already put this down to anxiety makes me suspect HVS - a lot of doctors are hopeless at spotting it. (PS - it's not dangerous at all; although left untreated means more magnesium depletion and further adrenal fatigue)

Maynard · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject:

[quote="mike4u"]i noticed that ever since ive had chronic fatigue, i have had some anxiety problems. I always feel tense and my muscles wont relax. I think thats a pretty common thing among cfsers. I havent had a full blown anxiety attack, but definetely have a harder time dealinging with situations that i never had a problem with before.[/quote]

Have you tried supplementing with magnesium? Low magnesium's very common in CFS - it's involved in relaxing muscles.

The acute response to stress is usually to do with a weakened HPA Axis... Responds well to the usual treatment for adrenal fatigue usually: magnesium, vitamin C, B5... Full B Complex in high doses usually helps a lot with energy... and lots of water, decent salt intake and lots and lots of rest (horizontal) throughout the day.

Phosphatylserine's a really expensive supplement but it helps control the stress response really well in some people... (if you were going to take that it might be worth taking the full simplified Yasko protocol: Folapro, B12, Folinic Acid... http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=401 ... sorts the HPA Axis out quite rapidly in many reports.)

kenvj · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:

Maynard, thanks for this extremely interesting response.
I can't say that I experience it just quite the way you have outlined but it does happen on the very verge of dropping off to sleep. I just wake up and find that I am hyperventilating.
Apart from CFS I also suffer from Sleep Apnea and I've been on a Cpap machine for 5 years or so. It has now been suggested by my sleep clinic that I am getting "Sleep Onset Central Apnea" where you actually stop breathing just on the verge of dropping off to sleep. This would certainly cover the problem except that often I don't feel that I've actually stopped breathing - its like my breathing becomes slower and then suddenly I am hyperventilating. The are occasions when I feel that I have stopped breathing. Your suggestion about the hyperventilation syndrome is well worth my looking into and I will. Also thankyou for the Dr Myhill link - theres a lot there for me to read up on.
Regards Ken

kenvj · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:

Hi Maynard, I have been looking at Hyperventilation Syndrome. Most of the symptoms would apply to me except one very important one and that is the rate of breathing. It would seem that people with HVS overbreath,ie 15 breaths or more per minute. I acutally breathe very slowly, when relaxed I often breathe at only 8 to 10 breaths per minute which maybe a little too slow. Comment would be appreciated.
Ken

Maynard · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:32 am Post subject:

[quote="kenvj"]Hi Maynard, I have been looking at Hyperventilation Syndrome. Most of the symptoms would apply to me except one very important one and that is the rate of breathing. It would seem that people with HVS overbreath,ie 15 breaths or more per minute. I acutally breathe very slowly, when relaxed I often breathe at only 8 to 10 breaths per minute which maybe a little too slow. Comment would be appreciated.
Ken[/quote]

hey Ken!

i'm the same - very slow breather, but i hyperinflate

hyperinflation is really hard to spot, and if you're used to breathing too deeply, breathing at a normal rate feels VERY shallow (at first)

the Buteyko technique was really core to me getting this under control, but i've since realised a major cause and effect of overbreathing (whether too fast or too deep) is magnesium deficiency

i also suspect that in fatigue syndromes, because the cells have gone slow, they're producing less CO2 anyway - so perhaps a regular person [i]can[/i] overbreathe 2 or 3 times, habitually, as Buteyko suggests, and not suffer symptoms of low CO2, but perhaps a CFS sufferer needs to breathe less (closer to the ideal of breathing at just the right rate) to adjust for the slow mitochondrial function

anyway, the magnesium connection is so important here, and i suspect mg deficiency is [i]the[/i] major cause (and effect) of CFS... the symptoms are largely the same; it's almost impossible to detect mg deficiency without doing a loading test and testing urine; and it's very hard to correct

i've been taking mg supplements for years, with no noticable response, but just recently i've switched over to skin absorption, and i've noticed my own tendancy to overbreathe has corrected itself, i can breathe deeply, and i feel a real buzz and a real boost of energy within moments of taking it

what i've done is get hold of a tub of magnesium chloride (i never got any effects of citrate) and mixed a small amount of it, 1 part mg to 3 parts water... then i apply a small amounts throughout the day under the arm pits and on stiff muscles

the effects in 3 days have been greater than all the rest of the treatments i've done put together (including B12)

i can tell when my mg levels are topped up because i can take a big deep breath easily... they'll start to go down again within hours... i think to correct a long-term deficiency you're looking at getting around 100-250mg mg per kilo of bodyweight... so even with skin absorption (which is MUCH more efficient than oral supplements - which perhaps don't do anything for ppl with chronic deficiencies) i imagine it will take some time to get the whole body fully replenished

you basically get your blood levels up, pee out any excess, and hold on to it where it's needed

this might not apply to you, but i think it's very promising, and the difficulty of diagnosing and treating mg deficiency could a significant subset of CFS, fibro and asthma sufferers...

i've also noticed my immune system functioning better, fighting off a nasty virus (which inspired the move to trying skin absorption) much quicker than i'd have expected to, with a *proper* temperature, rather than just feeling run down for 3 weeks

epsom salts are another way to get magnesium in through the skin, but i gather mg chloride is more efficient - i'm going to test epsom salts as well in the next few days... the effects are obvious within minutes of application

kenvj · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

Thanks for that info Maynard - since being on the Gupta program my breathing has settled down very well.
Ken

Chronicfatiguetreatments · Site Admin

[quote="Maynard"]
The acute response to stress is usually to do with a weakened HPA Axis... Responds well to the usual treatment for adrenal fatigue usually: magnesium, vitamin C, B5... Full B Complex in high doses usually helps a lot with energy... and lots of water, decent salt intake and lots and lots of rest (horizontal) throughout the day.

Phosphatylserine's a really expensive supplement but it helps control the stress response really well in some people... (if you were going to take that it might be worth taking the full simplified Yasko protocol: Folapro, B12, Folinic Acid... http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=401 ... sorts the HPA Axis out quite rapidly in many reports.)[/quote]

Thats interesting. Ive noticed that since ive been on the yasko protocol, i feel much more relaxed. When i take my pills, i feel my head clear up ad my muscles relax.
Something that also has helped me alot, is waking up early and going to sleep at the same time everyday. This combined with the yasko protocol is really helping me. I think that my problem is related to the hpa axis, otherwise i dont see why the sleep/wake schedule would work so well.

My doctor (who overcame cfs) said this was one of the things that helped him the most. He also had a viral infection, but after he took antivirals and cleared the infection, thr sleep/wake schedule is what helped him the ost.

Ellien · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Shortness of breath

CFS is, I think, a response to a severe stressor such as a viral infection, actual stress such as at work, an accident, any of which cause a similar brain response as in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (breathing difficulties are a common factor of PTSD). Although these can be triggers, according to Dr. Paul Sherwood the underlying cause is spasm in the spinal muscles, caused many years previously by an accident, a fall, a whiplash, an injury. I have been to him for treatment and he has cured my chronic back problems, with a significant improvement in my CFS. When a virus set me back he prescribed Exanol Original, an anti-viral made from a cactus. After a month of taking this I am much better. The improved back will go on doing its work and the CFS should be cleared up within another sic months to a year completely.
His book Your Back, Your Helath explains why treating the back if you have spasm will help you get over CFS/ME. It will also tell you why the same back problem is at the root of many cardiac arrests. This is a completely unique way of understanding illness and its roots in the physical body, and is wholly based on physical medicine. Dr. Sherwood has an open mind like no other doctor. Find his website at wwwDrSherwood.co.uk .
To re-learn correct breathing you need to breath with your diaphragm. Hold your hands at the side of your ribs, and breath into them, feeling the ribs expand. Your chest should not rise. Practice this until it becomes second nature. That's all there is to it. Good luck.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia

Shortness of breath.